Slightly edited for clarity.
Alex
Welcome to Paper Defiance, a fortnightly podcast all about indie bookshops and their owners. My name is Alex, and I am recording this on Wadawaurang land, in Ballarat Australia. It’s exciting to have you join me.
For this very first episode of Paper Defiance, I talked to Leah Koch of The Ripped Bodice, a bookshop in LA that focuses on romance books. About seven years ago, Leah and her sister raised more than $91,000 US on Kickstarter in order to get their bookshop off the ground. Leah talks about why they wanted to start the store, what she loves about the physical space of the store, and of course the effects of Covid. At one point Leah notes that a podcast isn’t a visual medium, but if you go to paperdefiance.com, you will see some pictures of their store – and of course I’ve got links to their Instagram page and so on.
Two things before we get into the interview. First, make sure you don’t just end the podcast after the interview, because there’s a little something after it, too. And second, there are a couple of swears in the interview, so if that’s not right for your ears, then maybe skip this one.
All right. Over to Leah.
Leah
Hello, my name is Leah Koch, my pronouns are she/her, I live in Los Angeles, California, and I’m one of the two owners of the Ripped Bodice bookstore, which is a romance focused, independent bookstore.
Alex
That leaves me with so many questions to ask. Firstly, the name is just so evocative. How did that come about?
Leah
So the other owner of the store is my sister Bea. And before we opened the store, she was getting her Master’s at New York University in fashion history. And she wrote her thesis on the clothing in historical romance novels. And it was called – the thesis – “Mending the Ripped Bodice”. So in the mainly ’80s, bodice rippers was a term for romance novels – generally considered to be a derogatory term, because they were almost all historical. And sometimes they literally featured the dude ripping the lady’s bodice open. So she named her thesis that, “Mending the Ripped Bodice”, and then we were like, “We like it”. I think we liked the idea of a couple of things. One was, like, you know, reclaiming what was previously a derogatory term, because sort of the whole point of the store is respect for the romance genre and celebration of the romance genre. But we also liked that it was like a little tongue in cheek. And we wanted to signify that we take the book seriously, but we don’t take ourselves too seriously.
Alex
So an MA in fashion history – how does that then turn into – sorry, for your sister – how does that then turn into the both of you opening a bookshop?
Leah
Well, we both have degrees in things that are traditionally considered not very useful. So she’s two years older than me, she was working on her Master’s while I was getting my undergraduate in visual and performing arts studies. And I think we both had discarded several career options and thoughts that we thought we were going to do. And, you know, both liked the idea of working for ourselves, working together. And so the way we came up with the idea for the store was, well, number one, it’d be cool to own a store, because then our lives will be like Gilmore Girls, and we’re like, little shop owners. Which is sometimes true and often not true. But we’re like, okay, we open a shop, what does the shop sell? Well, the shop sells things that we like, so we like books, so the shop should sell books. Well the books that we like are romance novels. So the shop should sell romance novels. What if the shop only sold romance novels? And that was like the lightning bolt, light bulb, whatever moment. We were driving – I was dropping her off at LAX, we were literally circling the airport, and we were like, “Huh, that’s a good idea”. And then she got on a plane back to New York, four hours went by, and she called me she was like, “that’s a really good idea. I think we should do this”. And it was very much full steam ahead from there. We really, you know, we were both at the end of educational things. So it was either get a job or figure something else out. And so we decided, we really want to make a go of this. So we worked on our business plan, we thought about funding options and decided on Kickstarter, and we did the Kickstarter about six months after that initial conversation, and then we opened the store five months after the Kickstarter.
Alex
That sounds really fast. Was that fast?
Leah
Yeah, it was fast. It was fast. It was, I think that was partly dictated, it was dictated by two things. It was dictated by the, like I said, the end of those educational things. So it was either, do this really fast, or get a job, do this in your free time, and maybe it never actually happens. We just felt like getting day jobs or whatever was just really gonna slow us down. Because we didn’t, you know, it was only – I graduated from college in the middle of the year in December. And so we opened in March. And so that was one factor. And the other factor was the Kickstarter aspect, because we were super familiar with Kickstarter, and lots of friends had used it for things and there is this reputation sometimes that whatever project you’re giving money to comes to fruition like five years later, it just can be really slow. And so I think we felt like we’re asking for a large sum of money, we need to show these people that we are very serious that this is going to happen. And that we’re moving and that their money is being used. So once it became clear that we were going to meet our Kickstarter goal, we were, you know, looking for retail spaces. Because we were – we were just like, we’re taking these people’s money, we need to use it efficiently and speedily. And let’s do it.
Alex
So if you had if your Kickstarter obviously worked, you’ve reached your funding goal, that says that a lot of people out there somewhere were really keen on the idea of a romance-focused shop that’s run by two women. Did you get equally positive reactions from other people who – like in the industry or your family? How did other people react?
Leah
I mean, it was kind of very… so at the time, this is 2015, there was no romance bookstore in the United States. So…
Alex
Really?
Leah
Yeah.
Alex
Okay. That’s seems remarkable to me. But…
Leah
Yeah, I think some people would take that as a sign that they shouldn’t do this; we took it as a sign that like, we’re gonna do it. Because of that, there’s no real way to do market research. So the Kickstarter was essentially the market research, because it’s basically, either people are excited, and they give us money, and we succeed, or they don’t, and we fail. And we’re like, Okay, well, maybe no one wants this. So it was basically designed to be our market research. Our dad was… he would definitely disagree with this, but he’s not on this podcast. So he definitely did not think we were going to raise that amount of money. I think… he was supportive. He was just like – that’s also related to Kickstarter, because he was like, “What? Strangers are gonna give you money?” And we were like, “yeah”. He’s like, “Why?”, and we were like, “Well, they get a cool t shirt. And they, like, want to support us”. He was very hung up on the whole Kickstarter aspect of it. But he would tell you now that of course he knew we were going to be a success. I would say, reactions from romance people was generally positive. There was a lot of people unlike you who really didn’t like the name of the store. And there was this concerted effort to get us to change it. And people were very mean about it. And we were like – I mean, it was fine; at the time, it was very traumatizing because we were so young, and we were like, “Oh, my God, they hate us”. Now, we’re like, why on earth would you care what somebody else names their bookstore? But they did, they really cared. So there were definitely some of those. But that was mainly old women. But generally very positive. And, you know, I think the remarkable thing is that a lot of our Kickstarter backers don’t live in Los Angeles. They were not – they didn’t know when, if ever, they might get to the store. It was really about having that home for romance readers. That obviously, was going to be digital as well. But that was the really remarkable thing – we had international backers; that was the really remarkable thing to me.
Alex
So if there’s no other romance focussed bookshop in the States, how – did publishers – were they finewith the idea of sending you books, you know, did publishers take you seriously in terms of getting your stock together?
Leah
Ah, well, just to clarify, there is now – there’s another romance bookstore now, outside of Chicago, which is actually our hometown called Love’s Sweet Arrow. So now there’s two. I’ve met a woman who’s planning to open one in San Diego. She’s not done yet. But anyway. God, I don’t even – I’m trying to remember. I think they were. Yeah, I think they were excited. I mean I do actually think this has changed a lot in the last six and a half years, but – almost seven – but you know, romance just doesn’t get very much respect in the publishing world. So I think – and often in independent bookstores, so I think editors were generally excited that we were caring about it and you know, showcasing their books. So yeah, I think generally positive.
Alex
So one of the reasons that I’m doing this podcast is I’m fascinated by the spaces themselves of bookshops. I just – I love walking into a bookshop, I love seeing how they’re set up and those sorts of things. So were there specific things that you thought about in terms of the space, when you were thinking about what it was going to be like?
Leah
Yeah, a ton. We care about that a lot. Mainly me due to the whole visual art degree. So when we were thinking about doing this – I mean, we’re big bookstore people, that’s a big thing when we travel and in our hometown. And, you know, when we were thinking about doing this, we went – we took ourselves on a little bookstore tour of Los Angeles, there were some really fantastic ones. And, you know, one of the things we noticed, design wise, is they often – not always – but often, there’s just something that feels very masculine about them.
Now, let’s get one thing straight. Gender is made up, inanimate objects cannot be feminine or masculine, obviously. But… lots of heavy wood, you know, big shelves, dark, often. So we really, we really wanted something that felt very feminine. I know, I just said that doesn’t mean anything. And also, that just was very bright and happy. And it felt very celebratory and fun. Again, not take ourselves too seriously. So when we walked into our space for the first time, the first thing we noticed is it has two huge skylights. And we were like, “Wow, it’s so light in here,”it’s just – it feels, it has really tall ceilings, it feels really big and open and airy. And it was actually bigger than we had planned on. But the price was right. So that was the first thing from the sort of bare bones. And then I think our attitude is, if it can be bought antique, it should be bought antique. All – almost all the shelves and tables are antiques, we don’t really like what’s called fixtures, that you would buy from a catalog or website or something. Now, there are some downsides to this, I was literally just talking to my bookseller earlier, they’re a little bit harder to clean. We went to the Pasadena flea market here in Los Angeles and a couple of great antique stores for a lot of our fixtures because we just liked that look better, it’s more interesting, it has more character, we have a table that’s made out of an old Singer sewing machine that people are always pointing out. And yeah, so just, no – nothing, corporate, nothing homogenous, just as much – one of the first Yelp reviews we got was “it’s decorated like your grandmother’s attic”. And she clearly meant that to be an insult. And we were like, yeah, like, that is the point.
Alex
That is somewhere I want to visit; that sounds great.
Leah
We were like, “that’s not an insult”! And then just, you know, a lot of – as much creativity and personality as we can jam into the space. So if you’re listening to this, you should go look at some pictures. I know, this is not a visual medium. But – and I also use books to decorate whenever possible. So there’s books hanging from the ceiling, there’s books attached to the wall, there’s a rainbow made out of books. And number one, that’s because it’s free material because we have more used books than we will ever be able to sell. And number two, because it’s cool. And number three, and this is something we were considering from the beginning: the store is meant to be photographed and Instagrammed and shared with your friends. That’s on purpose, because that’s part of marketing in the 21st century. So we want to create this beautiful space that people want to take pictures of, and then show their friends. I feel like I could keep going forever, but a lot of different design things and I enjoy – I’m up in our attic right now, which is where I store all of my seasonal decorations. So there’s a life-sized skeleton and there’s an entire wall of Christmas decorations. I really enjoy decorating seasonally. And, you know, having fun seasonal displays. It’s something I really enjoy and it’s still – we’re talking on an auspicious day. It’s not done, I – the window display last month for Pride here in the United States was this giant LGBTQ progress pride flag made out of used book covers. Turned out really cool, you can see pictures on our Instagram. And I knew as I was making it, it took a long time, I was like, I’m not just gonna put this in the window, and then never use it again, it’s too cool. So I was like, Okay, we’re gonna put it – so I hung it up on a wall in the store. But that necessitated me moving some shelves, and that necessitated moving other shelves. So I’ve literally been spending the day moving different things around; the shelves, we had to move were for kids books, and then the open spot was next to the erotica section. And I was like, this is maybe not the best idea. So we have to put something else there. Again, it’s been a while since I’ve done this, I used to move the furniture around all the time. And sometimes customers will be like, when are you going to stop moving things? And my response sounds slightly nutty, or slash obsessive, because I’m like, when it’s perfect. I’ll stop moving things when it’s perfect. It’s not perfect yet, and honestly will likely never be perfect. But, you know, it’s like, one day, maybe I will have run out of things to do. Again, it seems unlikely. But you can see pictures of the flag on our Instagram, it did come out very cool.
Alex
So this might be a hard question then. But do you have a favorite part of the shop?
Leah
I mean, I don’t even know. It’s usually… it’s honestly probably the window display, which is again, always changing. So that’s – and that’s where, again, because I try not to change everything all the time, that’s where I’m putting a lot of my creative energy. So yeah, I would probably say the window. Second choice, and this is what a lot of customers say, and it’s really weird, it’s the bathroom. There are also pictures of that on our Instagram. And people often share that because six and a half years ago, we started, we put up a sign that said “leave a post it note of whatever you want”. And we put a bunch of post-its in the bathroom and pens. And now six and a half years later – I’ve never even estimated, I mean, there’s got to be over 500, maybe even more. Yhe place is just plastered in post-its of, you know, lots of empowerment – like “You go girl” kind of thing. I love when people draw stuff, you know, people do a little sketch or a little drawing. They’ll put you know, what you would you know carve in your desk in middle school, you know, “Tracy hearts John”, or something like that. People will write where they’re visiting from, you know, if they’re, especially if they’re from like another country. It’s really cool. And it’s just – I mean, it’s also quite the time capsule, you can see – I mean, we don’t really take them down. So people just put them over them. But around our last disastrous election here in the United States, there was an explosion of you know, “this is bad, but everything’s gonna be okay” kind of thing. It’s – yeah, it’s actually a really cool… I don’t, it was certainly not, we didn’t anticipate it becoming this cool. We’re like, it’s the bathroom. But it is very cool.
Alex
That is awesome. Which leads me into again, another question I wanted to ask: what do you think’s been one of the most surprising things that you have learned or experienced over the last seven or so years?
Leah
Oh, I think the degree to which we were going to feel like a part of people’s lives. I’m going to a customer’s wedding on Saturday.
Alex
Oh, wow.
Leah
Like literally. She invited our whole staff. It’s so lovely. And they’re coming earlier in the day because she wants to take pictures in the store in her wedding outfit. And that – I just never would have thought of that. It’s – and then there’s another, I mean, this is sort of related, there are other things – but another regular, regular customer, got engaged to the man that I remember when she went on her first date with him. Like she told me – I was like, “What are you doing this weekend?” And she was like, “Oh, I have this like kind of promising date with this guy” – and now they’re getting married. There is a child who was in utero when we opened, who is starting first grade. You know, we see kids in the neighborhood grow up and people get pets and – I don’t know, it’s just, I – it’s really amazing. And it’s so – it’s just really cool when people, we get to see people’s lives, and you’re just this sort of, you know, fly on the wall, and it’s just through, you know, conversations that we have with people that, you know, they have with their friends as they’re shopping, and a lot of people have made friends through the store, which has been really fun to see. So yeah, I think it’s just – I never would have expected that I would be attending a customer’s wedding. I never would have expected that.
Alex
Which then in turn also leads me to kind of one – I think one of the big questions that I’ve been thinking about over the last few years is, what do you think the point of a physical bookshop is? When you know, you and I could easily buy a book, even a paper book, via one of the big online places if we wanted to. So why is it that so many people from around the world wanted to give you money to start a new bookshop? Why did they – why do we keep going to the physical places, do you think?
Leah
I would have loved to have interviewed myself two and a half years ago and answered that question, because I think nothing made it more clear than COVID. It just so… obviously, our experience has been a bit different than yours. In the United States, we had to, we were required to close the shop for about three months. And then we were able to reopen, but it was at very limited capacity. And we couldn’t do any events or stuff for about two years. So it’s a couple of things. Number one for your actual shopping experience, I think that there’s two things that a physical shop can provide that the internet does not provide. Listen, I love the internet, but. Number one is the ability to browse, it’s just, it’s a lot harder – you can do it on the internet, but it’s a lot harder, you know, you have to know what you’re looking for. So – and you know, you might get taken other places, but just that ability, there’s just so much less of a chance that you’re going to find something that you were not at all looking for. Because you wander into that section, or you know, you just picked it up because it looked interesting. There’s just so much less of that on the internet. And then the second part of that is our booksellers and the hand selling experience and the ability to talk to a real life person, aka a human algorithm. That’s what algorithms try to do. But you come in and you say, “I liked this, this and this, I didn’t like this”. And we say “okay, try x x and x”. We have something computers do not have. And, you know, that was really I think the experience I was trying to recreate for people when the store was closed to foot traffic: we set up this form where people could say, you know, “I liked this, I didn’t like this, and I want three books, can you choose them for me”, and we we were choosing books for people via the internet. And we still do it around the holiday – it was so popular, people really wanted us to do it all year, it’s not really possible to do all year because it’s so much work. We still do it around the holidays, and we’ll you know, we’ll build you a custom care package, you can say I want one historical that sort of similar to this, and I also want a candle and I want etc, etc. So that’s, you know, the actual shopping aspect. And then you know, the other thing is, like I said we once we reopened to foot traffic, we still couldn’t do events, and it was just – people were just like begging, when can we come to book club? When can we do writing classes? When are you going to have authors again? and that is – and again, we also had a pandemic version, we did some, a lot of virtual stuff. And some of it was great, and we’re still doing some because there is you know, a nice aspect – there’s certainly an accessibility aspect to that, you know, you could attend an event from Australia. That’s very nice. But it’s just not the same human interaction. You know, there’s a big difference between listening to an author talk via zoom alone in your house, and coming to the store, chatting with people beforehand, shoping, maybe meeting up with friends or just talking to the people next to you, then listening to the author, then standing in a signing line – like God, more friends have been made in signing lines at this store, you know, people just like to hang out with the people in front of and behind them. And, you know, I always – people, romance readers are very, like sharing and they’re very nosy. So you know, they see what books you’re holding and they say, “Oh, I loved that one”. And you just don’t have that virtually. So it is – and it is that community aspect. We did try to do our book club virtually. And it just wasn’t successful. I think people were really – there was so much virtual stuff going on. So I just think that community aspect – and I would wager that many people who you ask this question will say some version of the word community, it’s just… and I think it is fairly unique to bookstores. I mean, you know, there’s something like, whether you have a community centre in your town, or like a Boys and Girls Club or something, but you know, this is very focused on one thing, it’s like… I don’t know, I’m like, trying to – I guess it’s like a store that only, I mean, it is a store that only sells one thing. I’m trying to compare…
Alex
I suspect somewhere like a yarn shop or a quilting shop might have a similar thing. Also a feminine space.
Leah
Right? Funnily enough, I’m an avid quilter. Yeah, but there aren’t that many things that are comparable, where it’s like this community, for adults that are focused on one particular thing that is in person, like, obviously, you can find a lot of those online. And we do a lot of stuff online as well. But yeah, I just think bookstores holds such a special place in society and just cannot be replicated on the internet. You can get close and you can do a lot of stuff. And, you know, I I am not a fan of people who – people who shit on ebooks, because there are some serious accessibility issues and class issues with that. It’s like, if you’re shitting on ebooks, you’re kind of shitting on people with disabilities and poor people, which is not a great thing. I’m a fan of more people reading however they need to do that. I just don’t think that anything to do with ebooks is at the exclusion of paper books. I think it’s been long proved that ebooks, audiobooks, paper books can all coincide, coexist very peacefully together, and everybody can be happy. And there’s no real reason – you know,every once in a while on the internet, someone’s like, this is the only real way to read, and it’s still “Why?”
Alex
Leah, I have two final questions for you. Number one, what are you currently reading?
Leah
I’m currently reading I… I almost am always reading advanced copies of things because I’m a fancy person. So I’m currently reading an advanced copy of a book – I can’t remember when it’s coming out, sometime in the Fall – called When in Rome, by Sarah Adams. It’s an upcoming romcom contemporary romance that takes place in Rome, Kentucky. And it’s very charming. So far, I’m really enjoying it. It’s about a pop star who’s sort of overwhelmed with her life and her favorite movie is Roman Holiday. And so she’s like, I’m gonna go to Rome, Kentucky and hide and try to have a break. And her car breaks down in front of the local pie shop owner’s house. And he takes her in somewhat begrudgingly. it’s really charming so far, I’m really enjoying it. And you know, honestly, I’m almost always reading about three books at the same time. But that is my one and only at the moment.
Alex
Very restrained of you.
Leah
Yeah, it’s really – it’s shocking. I I’m really bad actually at only reading one book at the same time. I try. But that – at the moment, that one is is is holding my attention completely.
Alex
And finally, is there anything you would like the listeners to know about, anything you would like to promote, social media or events that are coming up in the next couple of months?
Leah
Yes, well, the first thing is, we were talking before we turned the recording on, you were saying that a friend likes the store without ever having been here. And that is very common. And we would love to welcome you to our community no matter where you live. We have many, many, many people who I think would say, I love the Ripped Bodice, I’ve never been there. So you can absolutely shop on our website, which is therippedbodice.com We’re pretty much The Ripped Bodice everywhere. If you search that on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, you will find us. We are – I guess at this point, we’re not new to Tik Tok anymore. I think it’s been like a year. But if you want to see us at our silliest that is where you should go. And we’re like old for TikTock. So it’s generally me trying to figure out like – I won’t dance, but I’m like, how, what are these weird trends that I need to be doing? And we ship all over the world; it is often not very economical. But we do have a lot of authors coming through these days. And we almost always offer sign books on the internet. So you know if you can kind of get a bunch of stuff at once, it can be worth your while. And if you’re ever in Los Angeles, we would love to see you. Our neighborhood is called Culver City. It’s sort of central Los Angeles. And please, please come visit.
Leah
We get people from all over the world. We get a fair number of people from Australia, there’s a big romance loving community in Australia. You would sadly not be the first Australian and I’ve actually never been to Australia. So maybe some day I will make it over there. I have been to New Zealand, but not to Australia. But whether it’s virtual or in person, we’d still like to be friends with you.
Alex
Brilliant. Well, Leah, thank you very much for talking to me.
Leah
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Alex
My thanks again to Leah for her time. As promised, this isn’t actually the end of the podcast. Each episode I’m going to feature a vignette from someone talking about one of their favourite bookshops. To start us off, this is Amy.
Amy
Hi, I’m Amy, and one of my favorite book shops is called The Book Tree. It would be enough to know that it has a constant stock of Terry Pratchett novels. It would be enough to know that the owner always knows when the next Louise Penny book is coming out. It wouldn’t be enough to know that the owner is a TS Eliot aficionado, has an absolutely stellar children’s book collection and hosts local authors routinely. There are an awful lot of “it would be enough to know” about this particular bookshop. But my absolute favorite memory came on the day I found Lady of the Forest by Jennifer Roberson. And at the counter when paying for it was read a fantastic poem by the owner, containing the phrase, “f*ck you, TS Eliot.”
Music: “Loopster” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Paper Defiance 