Slightly edited for clarity
Alex
Welcome to Paper Defiance, a fortnightly podcast all about indie bookshops and their owners. My name is Alex, and I am recording this on Wadawaurang land, in Ballarat Australia. It’s exciting to have you join me.
Since I recorded the last episode I’ve actually visited a bookshop, which shouldn’t be as exciting as it was but for lots of reasons I don’t actually go into bookshops that much at the moment. Anyway, this bookshop is in Kyneton, a little town in regional Victoria, and it’s called Aesop’s Attic, which is a truly excellent name. By quantity it’s one third new books and two thirds used, and I think this mixed media kind of approach is a really clever one, especially in a small town. The owner was a delight and was very helpful to the customers who couldn’t figure out what they wanted. So Victorian listeners, if you’re in the Kyneton area, Aesop’s Attic is well worth a visit.
Last episode, I spoke to Charlotte about taking over a bookshop as 2020 began. In this episode I speak to Guinevere of Typeface Books in Perth, who did the exact same thing. Her experience was a bit different, because Perth is and was different from Mansfield, and the shop itself is different too. As always, remember to hang around after the interview for another vignette about visiting a bookshop.
Over to Guinevere.
Guinevere
My name is Guinevere Hall. What do you what you want me to say? I own Typeface Books. And I’m 53.
Alex
Can I start by asking how you came about the name for your shop?
Guinevere
Well, I mean, I bought – so Typeface Books used to be called the Well Bookshop. And it had been going for about 20 years. But I’d never heard of it before. And it was, I mean, it’s in my area. And I love book shops, and I’d never even heard of it before. So when it came up for sale, I had all these plans and everything and I wasn’t attracted – the name didn’t mean anything to me, the name was actually, they used to have it, it was called The Well, because it was the Well Read. And they had a cafe that was the Well Fed, and they had a travel agency, I think that was called the Well Traveled or something. So that’s what it, why it was The Well, but it didn’t have any meaning for me. So I decided when I took it over that I was going to change the name and sort of rebrand it because it was quite an old fashioned bookstore. And they didn’t have any online presence or anything like that, and had been losing money. So I thought, you know, I’m going to revamp this and come up with a new name and new branding and everything. So I had a short list or actually a long list, everyone gave me all sorts of different names. And then it came down to a shortlist of the ones that I could actually have, meaning, you know, they were available on – to get a website name and weren’t used by any other company. And I think I had about maybe four or five different names on that list. And then everybody, you know, I was getting people to vote for them and give me their – and of course, everyone liked a different name. So in the end, I just randomly chose one, because I just couldn’t be bothered, you know, doing that process anymore. And then once I’d chosen the name, it was kind of thenn easy for me to come up with a style and, you know, sort of a branding from that.
Alex
That’s fantastic. So then the next question is, when did you take over and revamp it as Typeface?
Guinevere
So I took over on January 6th, 2020. And then basically revamped the shop – so new floors and lights, because it was all, it was old carpet; it had, you know, fluro lights, you know, like in an old school and it was painted a horrible sort of greeny yellowy colour. So repainted, new wooden flooring, new light fittings, new branding with signs and everything, and reopened in February 2020.
Alex
So there’s obviously a question about the the issue of 2020 to be asked, but let me first ask about your process of thinking about the physical setting up of the space: what was your aim for your choices in doing all of those changes?
Guinevere
I wanted it to have a warm and cozy feel to it. So not that it wasn’t cozy before – it was probably over cozy with, that she – I actually removed seven bookcases. So – which sounds crazy, but I really opened it up. But it’s still got little nooks and everything. But she had it so that you couldn’t even see the front door from the – where the till was, because the till is at the back. And everybody that came through just said “wow, it’s just so much better now with that open space”. But my thinking was also to open it up so I could have events and be – so it was very small, very tight, sort of only one person could get past a bookshelf at a time. So the thinking was to open up – it’s quite a small bookshop to be said, I think it’s no more than 40 square metres, probably less than that. Very small for a bookshop. But my feeling was I want it to be warm so I did the sort of warm wooden flooring – or it’s not real wood, but – and then rugs and the lights, because they were the fluro sort of strip lighting before, I really wanted to get rid of them and have some warmer lights. Places for people to sit. I just wanted it to feel welcoming.
Alex
And before 2020 were you in the book trade or the retail trade? How did you get to the point of buying it then?
Guinevere
No, I was actually a real estate agent for 10 years. And people kind of go “what?”. It was – real estate, I mean, I love houses and I love looking through other people’s houses and I love talking to people, but real estate’s a real cutthroat business and you kind of… I mean, I made a lot of money which allowed me to buy the shop, and has allowed me to live off those savings for now. But it was never really something that I loved doing. But it was really good around children and having hours that allowed you to go and pick up the children from school, be home when they got home from school, if they had to have a sick day off it was very easy just to work from home. It was easy to go to their sports, you know, things – I would say, “Oh, I’m in a training course all day” or something because – you could make up excuses, you can really set your own times. But saying that I was also having to work all weekends, every evening. So I kind of got sick of that after 10 years. And people used to say to me, what would you do? What – if you could do anything in the world, what would you do? And I always said, I would own a bookshop. But the other part of that was, and be wealthy enough that I never had to sell a book. Unfortunately, I never got that second part, but when I left real estate, and I was actually – I got another job, which I hated because it was a nine to five office job. And I thought no, I can’t do this. And then I was unemployed for about four months. And I decided that I didn’t – because real estate’s quite, really quite independent, you’re almost like working for yourself. And I thought I can’t work for someone else who has to tell me what to do. So I thought I’m gonna look for a business and I looked around for businesses and actually put an offer in on a gardening business. But then this bookshop came up and I just, you know, backed out of that one. And went – even though, I knew that they weren’t making any money, they’d been losing between 10 and 15 grand a year.
But saying that, she was independently wealthy, and she employed people in the business. So she was spending 50 grand a year on wages. So I thought, well, if I just do it by myself, and I take the loss out of that, that’s about 35 grand a year, and, you know, I can live on 35 grand a year, that’s doable, doing what I want to do, and I also had, you know, all these great plans, and I was gonna make it better. And I was going to get on the social medias. And because – like I said, I didn’t know the shop. So I really wanted to be able to, you know, advertise it. So people would know that it was here. And I thought I could make another 10 grand by, you know, having all these events and doing this. And that was my idea in January 2020.
Alex
There’s going to be a whole genre I think of jokes, and you know, “I made this decision… and it was 202.” So, let me ask the question, then, what’s it been like over the last couple of years? Now you are in Perth, which, for people outside of Australia had has had fewer lockdowns and restrictions than for instance, I lived in Melbourne, where we had much stricter lockdown for a longer period of time. Nonetheless, it’s still been 2020 and 2021 for you: what’s that been like for you as a business?
Guinevere
Well, I mean, you’re right about the lockdowns, we definitely didn’t have the lockdowns you guys had, but I think people just put themselves in self isolation. You know, there wasn’t official lockdowns, but basically come March 2020, the number – like February 2020 was fantastic and I had all these plans, and I booked all these people to do events. And then come March 2020 we had, you know, it was starting to get all this noise about what was going on. And the numbers just dropped off dramatically. Like they really – I was standing there, you know, towards the end of March, and I’m thinking, what’s the point of actually even opening, no one’s even coming through. And it was about then that we had our first lockdown. And people, you know, had already locked themselves down by then anyway, so I think I shut the shop for about – I’m thinking it was about three or four weeks where it was just shut and what I was doing was delivering. So I was doing home deliveries, which was maybe making about $100 a day, why – I didn’t have an online, I kind of had an online presence, at that stage, but there wasn’t a – I didn’t have my inventory online or anything. So you couldn’t go online, to see what I had and buy online, that kind of thing; that’s been done since then. But it hadn’t been done at that stage because it was quite an expensive thing to do. So, you know, I was making about $100 a day and, you know, trying to come up with all these things to do online and trying to you know, get people’s interest going. But, you know, it was quite a – but I didn’t, I wasn’t that worried at the time. I thought oh, well, you know, it’ll just be a few weeks and then it’ll all be over and we’ll get back to normal. It’s you know, it’s fine. It’s given me time to sort of think about what I’m going to do. But then as you know, just kept going on and on and we had lockdowns. And the big problem with my shop – and everyone keeps saying, “Oh, but surely in a bookshop, you’re going to be, you know, everyone’s going to be reading, there’s going to be people wanting books”. And that sounds great, but I think my shop might have been a lot of different than other shops in that my main clientele are over 70. And I think that the over 70s were probably the most worried about the disease because they were the ones that were dying, so they’ve never really come back. And the – part of my my bookshop is I have 75 book clubs – I didn’t have 75 book clubs when I started, I think it was 50 book club. So I’ve built it up to 70, my book clubs that use my – I have a library, so they borrow the books. But of course, in COVID times, they all went, “Oh, we’re not going to meet because we’ll all get sick”. And they didn’t know how to do zoom meetings, you know, it was all too hard for them because they weren’t online and all this kind of stuff. So that really sort of plummeted. And that was – when I took over, she said to me she was making $25,000 a year from the book clubs and about $10,000 a year from selling books. So it was the biggest part of my income. So that wasn’t something that I could, you know – I was delivering the book clubs’ books that were still meeting. But it wasn’t something that – if they weren’t meeting, there wasn’t much I could do about that. So – and then, of course, all my events that I had planned, all my big dream events, and all these things I was going to do, just got cancelled, because nobody wanted to attend. And I must say, I haven’t got that urge to – after two years of having these thoughts and booking these things, I’ve just kind of – I think I don’t, can’t be bothered doing it anymore. I don’t even want to think about. It’s not worth it.
Alex
Doesn’t seem like there’s all that much appetite, really and again, especially amongst an older cohort for those sorts of things to be back yet.
Guinevere
No.
Alex
So that sounds like it’s been really quite exceptionally hard, especially for the start of a business. So then, what’s kept you going – are you still enthused about having the bookshop?
Guinevere
I am so enthused about it, I do love it, I really love it. And the other part of the bookshop is that, it’s not just a retail thing. It’s not just about selling things and making money. I never thought that I would be you know, making my fortune or anything, I don’t think you could buy a bookshop thinking you were going to make lots of money. So, you know, my idea of living on $30-35,000 a year, you know, to most people is kind of like, why would you do that? Why would you work that many hours and have all that stress and only make that kind of money, but it’s more than that. It’s about the community that you make, and it’s about helping people and – and I love it when children walk past the door, and go “ohhhh it’s a bookshop!” and they just come in and they’re almost like, oh, so excited. And then when people come in, and they asked me for recommendations, and they go away with a book I’ve recommended and come back and say, “Oh, that was the most fabulous book, thank you, thank you” – it’s those things, rather than the money, that keeps me going, that makes me want to do it. And I think that book shops are more than just a retail shop, they really provide something in a community that is not provided by a dress shop or a, you know, that kind of retail that you might normally think about. It’s a lot more than that.
Alex
Which leads me to – I’m intrigued by the number of book clubs that you’re facilitating. So obviously, you kind of inherited many of them from the original bookshop. Is that because of the people in the area were interested in the book clubs – how have you added another 25 over the last couple of years or less, presumably because of Covid?
Guinevere
Yeah. Well, I’ve been fortunate: last year, at the end of last year, there was another person that did that down in Mandurah, which is south of Perth. And he had been doing it for a long time and he stopped doing it and I found out about this. So I approached them and said, you know, “I’m doing the same thing if you want to come through me” and a lot of the book clubs have then joined mine instead. And I post to the country as well. So there’s a lot of country groups came from that. So posting out to the country. And then of course word of mouth because you know, others who are doing that would tell others and there was also – because I think she, the previous owner was, she tried to sell it for a long time, and no one was interested because there was no money in it. So she had kind of wound down the book clubs, and she wasn’t putting any new books on for a long time. And I started by basically saying, I’m gonna put new books on every quarter. So put three new books on every quarter. And a lot of the old book clubs that did used to go through that, who had sort of dropped off because the books were old, and they’d read everything, came back, because they were like, “oh, you know, this is great, because we’d read everything, so we – you know, there was no point us going any more”. So I’ve really refreshed all the books, and I spent a lot of time finding books that I think would be suitable. And also trying to push their tastes a little bit. So I’m really enjoying that part of it. And that’s going mainly well, when we don’t have outbreaks, but at the moment, they’re all hanging in there, so that most of them that have remained have decided, you know, they’ve either worked out how to do it, either in a place with lots of air, or they have learned how to zoom. So, they are all trying really hard. And I’ve also let them know that – I’m doing a monthly newsletter that keeps them up to date with what’s happening. And, you know, let them know that I’m struggling and some of them just pay – “even though we’re not going to meet we will” – you know, so really wonderful things that people are doing to keep it alive. And recently, I also started – because there’s a bookshop, used to be a bookshop in Perth, called the Oxford Street Bookshop, which was in Leederville which closed I don’t know how long ago, like 10-15 years ago, and was a much loved bookshop in a cafe strip area. But because of the rents, it just ended up shutting down. And just recently, they are starting – they wanted to get started again. So they’ve done this, it’s called by “Buy me a coffee” thing where they’re saying, if I can get this many people who will put down $5 a week we will reopen. And I thought what a fabulous idea. So they’re doing like a not for profit bookshop, that will be basically subscribers or members will keep it alive by paying $5 a month. And I thought that – what a great idea. But what about the book shops like mine, who are struggling anyway, so I thought, Well, I’ll try that as well. So I started that about a week ago, maybe week and a half ago now. And so far, I’m up to about $360 a month. To keep me open, that’s just $5 per person. And there’s just been such a great response for that – people just saying we don’t want you to go, we really love it being there. And you know, $5 a month is nothing you know, it’s a coffee. And I kind of feel in a way that that might be the future of bookshops having kind of a membership that keeps the doors open, because as I said, there’s no money in it. I mean, the rent that I pay is far in excess of any profit that I would make from the shop. And that’s not going to go away – the rent’s not going to go away. We only get a 40% markup on the books. So it is quite hard to make money, especially when you’re competing against the Amazons and Book Depositories and everything of the world. And you know, the Targets who – people come in and say, “Oh, do you have such and such?” “Oh, yes, I’ve got that.” “How much is it?” “Oh $32.99” – which is the recommended retail price. “Oh, I can get it $15 at Target.” And you know, if people keep buying, you know – and I probably would have done the same before I had a bookshop. But if people keep buying from Amazons and the Targets, they’re really going to restrict the type of books that they’re going to be able to buy because Amazon is not going to have, on their bestseller list, any Australian books because it’s going to be dominated by Europe and America. Target’s only going to put in those best sellers from Europe and America, we’re not going to be able to have these – we’ve got such fantastic authors in Australia, just amazing stuff that’s coming out. But it’s the booksellers like myself and others who read those books, and then recommend them and hand sell them to the customers that keep our Australian authors being able to sell their books because Amazon’s not going to be featuring them and that kind of thing. So it really needs retail shops. People don’t come in and say “oh, do you have the latest – ” or they might say “have you got the latest Tim Winton” or you know the big names, but people that – the emerging writers, it’s us who’ve read them and say, “oh my god, this is so good. You’ve got to read it” – that’s what bookshops do. And we can really – those debut books that come through our hands are the ones that will become big, not because of Amazon and Book Depository and Target but because of all the small independent bookshops introducing them to the readers.
Alex
Yeah, I was going to ask you what you thought the point of bookshop was now that you have been doing this for a couple of years, and that’s – you’ve just answered that question really eloquently. So that’s a very passionate call to support indie bookshop. So thank you for that. So you’ve talked a bit about what’s been difficult over the last couple of years, what’s been something that has surprised you in a pleasant way over the last couple of years?
Guinevere
Maybe the government support that we’ve actually been given. That’s kept me going. And it’s not huge amounts, but you know, $3,000 here – I think I had $3,000 this year, and then $3,000 last year, and that’s kind of like, yeah, they bloody should. And you know, the owners of the building, they gave us three months off without having to pay any rent. And the government’s also gave us, you know, basically paid for our electricity bills for like two years, I think we’ve got $1,500, on electricity, which, you know, it was about two years’ worth of bills. So it’s those things that have actually, you know, surprised me that we’ve got that much support. I certainly think there could be more but that’s been that’s been great. Surprised me… I don’t know, I guess probably, people coming in and saying how much they appreciate what I’m doing. And as a real estate agent, we never got that; we were evil. So that’s what I love about it. I just love people coming in and saying, “Oh, my God, your book shop’s so lovely. I love being in here, the feelings that it gives me, I just – as soon as I walk in, I just feel so relaxed. And it’s just such a great feeling. And thank you for what you do for us.” It’s just good to feel that because I never felt that in real estate. I just love being part of the community and having that feeling that the community actually supports you, and is as passionate about what you do as as you are. And that has really surprised me mainly coming from an industry where people only complain about you, coming into an industry that people absolutely adore and love is just so wonderful.
Alex
Do you have a favourite part of your shop? Is there one section that you are particularly proud of, or that you particularly enjoy?
Guinevere
I love history. That’s – I’ve got my degree is in politics and history. So any historical stuff I just love. Yes, that’s my – I guess that’s my passion. Also novels, I love reading novels as well, especially historical fiction. So that would be my passion, is the history section. And I think I’ve got a pretty good one. But I guess in my shop, it’s really 50/50 when I look at my figures, children’s and fiction. So fiction is a big, big part of it, as you would believe. And also the children’s section, which you might think, “Oh, that’s a bit weird, considering you’ve got sort of the over 70s”, but they’re buying for their grandchildren, and they’re buying for their grandchildren because they want to get them off devices, they’re buying for their grandchildren, because they really want to give them the books that their kids loved. So most of my children’s fiction is also quite traditional and quite – they like the classics and that kind of thing. I do put in, you know, other things that – Aboriginal work is not a – i put it in there, but it just doesn’t sell because – I don’t know, they’re, it’s quite a white, wealthy suburb. And they – there’s a lot of, in the especially young adult fiction at the moment, there’s a lot about trans and gay – it’s a very, very big thing at the moment, but I put that on, but it just doesn’t get purchased because it’s the grandparents buying for the grandchildren. And even if they are gay or trans, they really don’t want to know about it. So that’s – the children’s section is a very big part of my bookshop. And it’s mainly because it’s the grandparents coming in and buying – it’s what they do: they buy the books for the children for their birthdays in for Christmas.
Ale
Guinevere, I have two final questions. The first is what are you currently reading?
Guinevere
Oh, my goodness. I’m actually – I’ve just finished a book but I’m just about to pick up “All that’s left Unsaid” by Tracy Lien. I haven’t read it yet though. So literally finished book last night and it was called “The Book of Goose”. Oh, I couldn’t you – I can find it. I can tell you that – oh, there it is. “The Book of Goose” and it is by Yi Yun Li. So all new books. Probably the best book I’ve just read recently is Barbara Kingsolver’s new book, which is called “Demon Copperhead”, and it’s a retelling of David Copperfield set in the southern Appalachians in I’d say 1990s. And it’s a lot to do with the opioid crisis in America. So absolutely fascinating. You don’t have to have read David Copperfield. In fact, I had to keep going back and going, oh, yeah, she is following it. But it doesn’t really matter. You don’t even really need to know that. But it’s so, so good. It’s a big doorstopper of a book, but it was really, really good.
Alex
And final question is, are there things that you would like listeners to know about, about the shop, anything that you would like to promote at the moment?
Guinevere
Well, something else that I’ve started doing since trying to think of ways to make money, we have a book, what do you call, subscription. So we have one of the subscriptions is for new release Australian books. So you can sign up and you get a new release Australian book once a month, along with chocolate, tea or coffee, bookmark, and a little gift in there as well. So that goes out every month. And we’ve also got our classic subscription, where you get the Penguin Classic, Popular Penguins, one of those, tea, coffee, gift, bookmark, and it’s a great gift or just a great subscription for yourself. It goes out once a month, and I’ve got about 60-odd subscribers on that as well.
Alex
Fantastic and I’ll have a link to your website on my website once this comes out, so people can follow that and subscribe. So thank you very much Guinevere, I’ve really enjoyed talking to you.
Guinevere
Thanks very much.
Alex
My thanks again to Guinevere from Typeface Books in Perth. As promised, and again, this isn’t actually the end of the podcast. Each episode I’m featuring a vignette from someone talking about one of their favourite bookshops. Over to Amy.
Amy
Hi, I’m Amy, and one of my favorite bookshops is the Ashland Book Exchange. I remember the day I stumbled into this gem for the first time. I was 18. And my lovely parents had given me the birthday present of a weekend with friends seeing Shakespeare at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. I wandered through the stalls of the bookstore for ages, despite its small size, and wound up with A Midsummer Night’s Dream poster that I kept all through university and well into my graduate school days, where it died an untimely death from too many tacks on too many walls. A few years later, I picked up a gorgeous copy of The Mill on the Floss by George Eliot. A harrowing mental trip if ever there was one. Now I just let that book sit on my coffee table, it’s gleaming green and gold cover beguiling company. While the fact that it exists haunts my very soul.
Alex
Thanks for listening to this second episode. You can find paper defiance on Twitter as paperdefiancepod. On Instagram, as paperdefiance. And on Facebook, it is Paper Defiance Podcast. Do come say hi.
This podcast is created and produced by me, Alexandra Pierce. The music is called Loopster, by Kevin MacLeod; you can find the attribution at paperdefiance.com.
Music: “Loopster” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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